Arsenal fans wrong to take moral high ground over Stoke’s Ramsey abuse

Up to this point, I have stayed out of the Stoke City / Aaron Ramsey rumblings that have been going on between numerous Arsenal bloggers and Stoke’s Oatcake Fanzine.

The quick background is stoke fans discussed on their fanzines forum how they were going to ‘mark’ the minute which Aaron Ramsey got his leg broken by Ryan Shawcross. In response, Arsenal fans through blogs and tweets showed their disgust, with it even making the national press.

My opinion is a simple one. Arsenal fans – get over it. Over my years of being a member of various forums, Facebook Groups and on Twitter, I have seen Arsenal fans discuss a lot worse. We should not be taking the moral high ground here.

Stoke City’s discussions to applaud, hold a minutes silence, chant Ryan Shawcross’s name, on the 67th minute is not a discussion which is out of place on a football message board. And even if they go through with their plans on Saturday, it will not be the worse thing sung on a game day.

It perhaps shows the current PC nature of the game that such a scenario has caused such outrage amongst Arsenal fan’s, trying to act holier then thou. In fact, Arsenal fans are hypocrites.

I look at the outrage of Arsenal fans when opposing fans first started singing “she said no Robin.” Now he has left, it is sang loud and clear both home and away. The same is with Ashley Cole. We think nothing about making up homophobic songs towards him. And lets not mention how many children’s parentage we have attributed to Ray Parlour over the years!

Even with the Arsene Wenger song which has disgusted so many over the years has been matched this season with an Arsenal version about David Moyes and Alex Ferguson touching boys.

And lest we forget Emmanuel Adebayor. Who has not sung about wishing it was him, after the shooting in Angola which left 3 dead and 9 injured.

I have been part of message boards where Manchester United have the nickname ‘Munichs’. I have seen Arsenal fans attack Liverpool fans over Hillsborough. I have seen Arsenal fan’s coming up with songs on message boards about both.

So before you get on your high horse. Before you call Stoke fans a disgrace. Think about what you have typed over the years. What you have sung. If you are whiter than white, then fair enough. But if not, get over yourself, do not take the moral high ground. Stoke’s actions are no more then a small part of the big pot which is football banter.

Keenos

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28 thoughts on “Arsenal fans wrong to take moral high ground over Stoke’s Ramsey abuse

  1. Harry Barracuda

    I look forward to Arsenal fans singing “Ryan Shawcross is a wanker” at precisely the moment the Stoke pond scum start celebrating the carthorse breaking Ramsey’s leg.

    Reply
  2. Richard Parkes

    Stokie here and sums up how I would feel about it.

    There are some absolute idiots on the Stoke forums and you need to take into account that they are a vocal minority, I very much doubt you will hear any of the above at 67 minutes because they are an idea from one or two fools on a message board. The only thing I can see catching on is chanting for Shawcross, simply because most Stoke fans DO NOT frequent the Oatcake message boards and as such will have no idea what it’s about and just sing along in support of Ryan.

    What doesn’t help the situation is one Stokie posts something ridiculous which gets some publicity, then some Arsenal fans pick up on it and start posting just as bad stuff about Stokies being “Pond Scum” according to the above poster, etc. and that will get the rest of the reasonable Stokies backs up and we’ll all start hating on Arsenal making the same mistake as you have done in the first place and assuming that the idiots who presume that everyone in Stoke is represented by the people who post on the Oatcake, and that all the Arsenal fans are represented by the idiots who respond.

    We’re football fans, let’s go to the match and watch it, hopefully see some decent football (contrary to popular belief, that happens sometimes here at the Brit…) and ignore the idiots on a forum instead of fanning the flames by giving them publicity which I strongly imagine is exactly what they were seeking in the first place…

    Would any of the Arsenal fans like to take on a bet as to whether the songs about Ramsey start before or after Ryan gets boo’d every time he touches the ball?

    Good post mate, nice to see a reasonable view and let’s work on getting the ridiculous abuse out of football instead of just coming up with worse of our own.

    DevonStokie

    Reply
    1. Shard

      It’s nice to see a decent message from a Stoke supporter. I can honestly say that’s the first I’ve seen.
      I disagree about the abuse to Ramsey being from a minority. Hopefully, it is now, because it is tiresome this whole ‘rivalry’ thing. I also have no problem with Stoke fans shouting support for Shawcross. Do it for 90 mins for all I care. You should also have no problem with Arsenal fans booing Shawcross. But booing Ramsey is ridiculous. That to me, is just silly and shows the club in a bad light. Equating the two doesn’t make sense. Only one of those was a victim, and it wasn’t Shawcross. So he’s getting booed because of his actions. Ramsey is basically getting booed for being on the receiving end of Shawcross’ actions.

      Anyway, hope it’s a good game, and that there are more reasonable Stoke fans out there such as yourself.

      Reply
    2. Jaime DeGrae DeMeneses

      So true and great to hear a reasonable voice in the mass of hysteria and one-upmanship that has been plaguing the issues here.

      It is a minority on both sides who are being truly despicable – the majority of Stoke fans join in the booing of Ramsey in my experience however – while i don’t agree with their reasons why – it’s a normal part of football for someone to get booed even if it’s the referee. And i notice no-one gives a damn about the referee being booed or the old “The referee’s a w****r” chants. Plus Ramsey has showed that, this year at least, he has dealt with the physical and mental stress it put upon him and is back to being a class player. I am sure that if Arsenal fans boo shawcross and he ends up scoring (God forbid! lol) then he may well have a shush for us too.

      It become stupid when a side-note overtakes the fact that it’s been an awesome season for Arsenal (the best in a few years) and yet we keep getting embroiled in stupidities like this.

      Kudos to you and those like you.

      Reply
  3. Antique Gunmen

    Disgraceful but fair enough. Didn’t want to deny, we’ll do the same unsportive mock in other cases. Outside the pitch we can do any trash talked except racism, but inside it’s always the players who are doing the actual “talk”. In this term, Rambo & friends will kick Shawcross and gang red strip ass. STOKE what a joke!

    Reply
  4. 9jagunnerdoc

    KeenosAFC

    You’re a disgrace to humanity, not even to Arsenal and Arsenal fans. How do the examples you cite even compare to people celebrating a malicious and career ending assault?

    This is not even about Arsenal and Ramsey. Any group of fans that celebrate an opposing player’s career threatening injury must be Barbarians, and for you to think we Arsenal fans are hypocrites, you sure belong with the Barbarians.

    Disgusting!

    Reply
    1. Kyle

      How is it a career ending assault as he is still playing. Also if you actually watch the video Ramsey broke his leg in a freak accident with the pitch,before Ryan even touched him and Ryan was just as upset as anyone but u lowly London skum who worship failure wenger. Like to target him because you have nothing else to cheer for. I’m not part of the dome idiots cheering about the leg but I will support my potters

      Reply
    2. David Jones

      What are you on about!? So Adebeyor comes under gunfire and could have DIED and you are the one calling Stoke fans barbarians and somehow fail to compare the seriousness of the two incidents and decide that mocking a guy who suffered ACTUAL trauma from witnessing people being shot and killed around him? The mocking of Adebeyor is actually far worse. Shame on you. How often when we play against teams who have broken our players legs do you hear stories whipped up in the media? NEVER. Use the internet and do a bit of research. MORON.

      Reply
  5. Kevkj

    A lot of Arsenal fans are hypocrites 100 red cards lol.Celebrate that holier than thou ones..
    As for Ramsey hes was offered apologies which he ignored,but never fails to bring the issue up withe media as though he was the only player to suffer a unfortunate injury.

    Mark Wilson broke his leg since RAMSEY, any media witch hunt there,Huth has been out all season thanks to a red card tackle from Henandeaz,doubt you knew that either.Its football .There is no worse team for backstabbing ,late tackles and spiteful play.

    Arsenal -Hypocrites hope Stoke beat you AGAIN.

    Reply
    1. Shard

      Do you comprehend that those ’100 red cards’ are over a period of 17+ years in all competitions? Any idea how many Stoke have had in that period? Just, you know, for some context. Of course, that in itself won’t tell us anything because Stoke were playing in the lower leagues with a different standard of refereeing. So basically, all the ’100 red cards’, that you so gleefully parrot from the media, shows is that Arsenal are heavily punished by referees. Also, like the 100th, not all of them were for dangerous play. But yeah, another chance for you to excuse your disgraceful behaviour.

      Ramsey never fails to bring up the issue? He’s given hundreds of interviews, and has responded to the issue when asked. He did miss a period of nearly 2 years (in terms of his development) and it is a big deal to him, understandably. But he barely mentions Shawcross, almost refuses to talk about him. Simply sticks to talking about his rehabilitation. So that statement from you, is a lie.

      Arsenal have had 3 broken legs in the league, possibly 4. And one in the CL. No issue is made of any of them anymore except the Ramsey one. Ever think it could be because of the way Stoke handled that whole thing? That would require something called introspection. Which I’m guessing isn’t one of your strong points.

      Reply
  6. Shard

    PC nature? No one’s trying to ban it. But it is undoubtedly stupid, and in poor taste, for the Stoke fans, to act like they were the injured party in the Ramsey incident. We’ve had 3 high profile broken legs in the league in that same time period. We just played against Sunderland who Dan Smith was representing when he broke Diaby’s leg. Was it even brought up? Did anyone care? Not as far as I know. Because Sunderland fans don’t pretend to be the victim there. Stoke fans, in a large enough number, do.

    A large enough number for that evil kid Ramsey to feel like he had to respond to them with a finger to his lips. Oh, the horror. How dare he! Breaking his leg was Ramsey’s fault. He was too quick and trying to be too clever. The mean old bully didn’t care about poor Ryan’s feelings afterwards. He dared to tell us to be quiet when we were exercising our right to abuse him. Seriously, if such (mean-spirited) stupidity isn’t challenged or mentioned just because there are idiots representing every club, then we might as well just turn a blind eye to everything.

    I’m not outraged by it, but I am disgusted by it and I don’t classify it under ‘banter’.

    As for Arsenal fans’ excesses. I don’t think the RVP song should be sung and I cringe every time that it is. But in every case there, I can’t think of a situation where Arsenal harmed someone, and then the fans heap abuse on the player for being the victim. That doesn’t excuse them, merely saying that this is a different situation and something I haven’t seen fans of other clubs do. (at least in such numbers)

    Reply
    1. James

      If Dan Smith still played for Sunderland, if Martin Taylor still played regularly for Birmingham against Arsenal; how do you think it would play out?

      Ramsey is a completely unique case for Stoke and you have to ask yourselves why.

      Reply
      1. Shard

        They would be booed. Like so many players are booed by so many clubs’ fans across the world. Big deal. The fans of those clubs certainly didn’t act like they were victims in all this or that the player was being unfairly targeted. Like I said, support Shawcross, boo Arsenal players, whatever. Even boo Ramsey if you must. I just think it is ultimately down to a lack of acceptance of Shawcross’ wrongdoing, and I think all Stoke fans know it. Even if they feel obliged to ‘defend’ their club.

        Much is made of Ramsey refusing his apology. Ramsey has said though he doesn’t feel ill-will towards him, he hasn’t (or hadn’t) been able to bring himself to speak to Shawcross. That deserves him being booed? Seriously?

        Look, Arsenal fans got riled up by the Ramsey broken leg because it wasn’t a one-off, and every single time the perpetrator was given a character certificate and spiel about lack of intent or wouldn’t hurt a fly nonsense, as if the accusation was that he intended to break the Arsenal player’s leg. But Shawcross was reckless and caused a serious injury to Ramsey, who lost a major chunk of his career just when it was hitting close to top gear. (For the record, Dan Smith’s ‘tackle’ was far worse) Yes Shawcross is booed by Arsenal fans, mainly because there were statements from both him and your manager about how he’s done nothing wrong etc etc. A simple sorry would have been better than the shielding, and obfuscation about ‘intent’ that went on. Sunderland and Birmingham both defended their players in the immediate aftermath but at no time did they pretend to be the victims in it. Even today, your chairman brings it up and paints Stoke and Shawcross as victims. I just think that is silly, and in some ways I think the club and the fans use it as a means to generate some ‘passion’. A reason to get fired up for a big game. As such, it isn’t Arsenal who talk about Stoke or the incident anymore. It is Stoke, and how they feel ‘hurt’ over criticism.

        Passing off serious injuries as just ‘one of those things’ indicates an unwillingness to learn how such injuries can be prevented, and the talk of ‘no intent’ shows a lack of understanding of the rules, and responsibilities of a player. Booing Ramsey, shows a lack of humility and class.

  7. stokie kev

    its a minority of our stoke fans that are giving a bad name,you cant class everyone the same,i for one are disgusted by some of our fans bellyaching,but you get that at every club,as for shawcross it was an unfortunate accident,the lad didn’t go out to maime a fellow sportsman,again its a minority that put him in that catagory,i think what its all about is that arron wouldn’t accept an apology,we know ramsey wont be playing on Saturday,but it would be nice to see both lads walk up to each other and shake hands,that would shut quite a few up on both sides,as a stokie ime glad ramsey has recovered and come back stronger,hes a goodun,also it would be good to see arsenal top the chart,think they deserve it this season,as for Saturdays match,sorry lads but we need the win then after that,you go for it.

    Reply
  8. Matthew Bazell

    I’m sick of football fans being offended. If you’re offended, then so what just have a go back. That’s what the culture used to be before everyone got middle class and up tight. Arsenal fans have never been angels and I agree with Keeno that we cannot take the high ground.

    Reply
  9. ScfcJase

    Fantastic post. From what I’ve read on our forums and social media comments, the general jist of it is this.

    Firstly, and most importantly, fans aren’t booing Ramsey because he got injured, that much is clear. Injury is part of football, every club has them, so to laugh at another’s misfortune is hypocrisy. What annoys Stoke fans, again from what I’ve read, was the aftermath across player/manager comments and especially the media. Wenger accused us of being a rugby outfit amongst other vocal outbursts at the club. Ramsey said last season it’s the worst thing that could’ve happened on the pitch, which came at a time where Muamba had retired from football due to his on pitch collapse. But above all, it’s the media’s incessant need to bring it up in numerous articles, even years after the event. Marc Wilson, our current centre back, has broken his leg since then – the media don’t bat an eyelid. Of course Ramsey will be in the media spotlight more because of his stature as a player but the media are unnecessarily throwing it into articles. And fans read these, which then fuels debate and inevitable abuse. Abuse which then reaches the stands – Shawcross was booed for 90 minutes with every touch of the ball at the Emirates earlier in the season, whilst Ramsey made a point of shushing our fans when he scored. I daresay if it the shoe was on the other foot, that Arsenal fans would be annoyed with such antics. But then as is the case with football, fans move to “defend their own” hence why Shawcross will be supported and Ramsey because of the apology refusal (see below), the media and the shushing, will inevitably be booed by our fans. Again, not because he was injured but how the whole issue afterwards exploded.

    Now take a moment to consider Shawcross. He was a young player at the time and the tackle visibly traumatised him – he left the pitch in tears. Whilst Arsenal fans have a right to be annoyed at a player injuring their own, it’s worth noting that he also offered an apology to Ramsey when he was still in hospital, yet as far as reports show Aaron opted to refuse to accept it. Again, this is what angers some Stoke fans.

    Now, without wanting to raise tempers, take a moment to consider the tackle itself. Ryan didn’t go in to injury Ramsey. Replays on Youtube etc offer a variety of theories such as Bendtner pulling Ryan before he went for the tackle, forcing a lunge, to images seeming to show Ramsey’s leg breaking on the turf before Shawcross connected. IRRESPECTIVE of what happened, it was a challenge in which both players could and wanted to win the ball. And again a point worth mentioning; Glenn Whelan never left Ramsey’s side whilst he was down, Stoke aren’t the heartless thugs that the media/fans portray us as.

    For what it’s worth, I like the rivalry between Stoke and Arsenal, but not because of the Ramsey incident. I think there will be a volatile atmosphere on Saturday which will make for a great spectacle, but for the wrong reasons. In an ideal world fans on both sides will eventually drop the matter; sadly I fear that won’t happen until the media insist on also dropping the matter. These mistakes happen in football, and I understand it came at a time where the likes of the Eduardo injury was still fresh in the minds of a few Arsenal fans – so you’d have every right to be annoyed. I just hope that one day it’s forgotten.

    There’s some thoughts anyway, and well done again for a great post Keenos.

    Reply
    1. Shard

      Wenger didn’t accuse Stoke of being a ‘rugby club’. He has in fact defended the right to play whatever style of football that any team may choose. He said that’s what makes it interesting. Wenger used the words, ‘it’s a bit like rugby’ in the context of a lack of protection for the goalkeepers and simply gave the example of an incident the previous week where Stoke claimed a goal after pushing the goalkeeper into the goal (I can’t remember when it was or whether the goal was awarded or not) That’s it. At no point did he use the term ‘rugby club’ and he wasn’t ever really talking about Stoke. If he’s criticising anyone, it’s the referees.

      http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/27082010/58/premier-league-wenger-stoke-rugby-team.html

      Reply
  10. phil

    1. has had nothing but abuse from arsenal fans even though he done nothing wrong, stop acting like he murdered ramsey in front of his mother

    2. ramsey and wenger alike did not accept shawcross’ apology but rather shunned him. that’s why we boo ramsey

    Reply
    1. Shard

      Break someone’s leg – get booed – poor soul

      Have your leg broken and miss essentially 2 years of your career – refuse an apology (who knows how sincere – not very judging by the public stance) – you bastard!

      Stoke’s logic is undeniable I suppose.

      Stop using a lack of intent or how sorry Shawcross was as a shield. It just makes the apology look insincere.

      Reply
  11. Jaime DeGrae DeMeneses

    I feel i have to put this point even though it is slightly of topic (so apologies). Many of the Stoke comebacks i have seen (including a few here) are reminiscent of the “hooligan years”. An incident gets blown up by media and fans, one side has justification for the INITIAL hard feelings, then the other side uses those hard-feelings as a justification for their own (“We said sorry and it wasn’t accepted”). It’s what happened a few times in the 80 – one individual in a upper tier spits on those below, and suddenly every fan from that club is a target. (Trust me on that – i may have simplified it but it actually how many incidents of hooliganism kicked off – i have researched it for a paper).

    The other point is that many here have said that Stoke fans are upset and started targeting Ramsey because the apology wasn’t accepted. Surely the point of an apology is to demonstrate remorse and sorrow for an action? NOT to have it accepted. So it shouldn’t have mattered whether the apology was accepted or not, or whether it was publicly or privately refused or accepted. Ramsey doesn’t bleat on about it per se – he just talks of how hard it was for him and how glad he is that he is back playing close to his potential. That is something both sides should celebrate. The bleating came from Pullis straight away who said that Wenger can “keep his opinion” and instantly got his back up over or club being understandable peed off at what happened. Yes some comments or the phrasing of the comments were made in the heat of the moment and not exactly thought through or put in the nicest possible way – but that should have been understood by the Stoke management. Instead of showing sympathy, he decided to describe it as “more of an awkward challenge than a bad challenge”. Which was silly — it was at minimum a “bad challenge” and the fact that Pullis (who represents the club) chose to minimise the incident hurt a lot of Arsenal fans, some of which then went over the top with their responses.

    Reply
  12. Luke

    Are you serious look at the Stoke City fans they abuse Ramsey and punish him for having his leg broken.

    Reply

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